D'un autre Genre  Index du Forum D'un autre Genre
forum pour Transsexuel(le) du Québec


Hormones bio-identiques et risques

 
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet    D'un autre Genre Index du Forum -> Centre d'information -> Hormone
Sujet précédent :: Sujet suivant  
krikri
grand papillon

Hors ligne

Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2012
Messages: 1 120
Sexe: Femme, MTF
Suivi psy: Oui
Hormoné(e): Oui
Changement de nom: Fait
Changement de mention de sexe: Fait
Vaginoplastie: Fait

 MessagePosté le: 07/09/2013 16:29:57    Sujet du message: Hormones bio-identiques et risques Répondre en citant Back to top

Pour celles qui craignent des risques associés à l'hormonothérapie ou ont des docteurs qui ont ces craintes...imprimez ce qui suit et montrez-leur!

Cette étude de 1998 sur 46 transsexuelles démontre que le traitement à base d'estradiol bio-identique ne pose que très peu de risques.

Arch Sex Behav. 1998 Oct;27(5):475-92.

A follow-up study for estimating the effectiveness of a cross-gender hormone substitution therapy on transsexual patients.

Schlatterer K, Yassouridis A, von Werder K, Poland D, Kemper J, Stalla GK.
SourceMax-Planck-Institute of Psychiatry, Department of Endocrinology, Munich, Germany.

Abstract
This follow-up study was carried out to validate the effectiveness of cross-gender hormone therapy embedded in a multistep treatment concept for transsexual patients. This therapy described in detail by the authors elsewhere and presented briefly below provides cross-gender hormone substitution to obtain an assimilation of secondary sex characteristics to the desired sex as quickly as possible. Personal and social background data of 46 male-to-female (M-to-F) and 42 female-to-male (F-to-M) patients passing through different stages of the treatment concept were included. In the Endocrinological Outpatient Clinic of the Max-Planck-Institute/Munich the effectiveness of cross-gender hormone replacement therapy as well as frequency and distribution of side effects were examined by follow-up examination of endocrinological parameters. Cross-gender hormones were administered either parenterally or orally. Blood samples were collected routinely after 2 to 6 months depending on the duration of hormone substitution and complication rate. The incidence of hyperprolactinemia in estrogen-treated M-to-F transsexuals lies in the range of studies published before, whereas the number of patients developing galactorrhea is significantly lower in our patients. The incidence of thromboembolic events during the time of cross-gender hormone treatment in our patients is negligible. Changes in hematological parameters are observed under cross-gender hormone therapy. With the cross-gender hormone regimen performed by us it is possible to generate less side effects in the treatment of transsexual patients than described before.

J'ai l'étude compléte. Protocol du traitement:
14 personnes - 2-8mg estradiol par jour
2 personnes - estradiol 80-100mg IM/ 2 semaines (injection)
15 personnes - cyproterone acetate (androcur) 10-100mg daily + estradiol 40-100mg IM/2 semaines
10 personnes - cyproterone acetate 10-100mg daily + estradiol 2-8mg par jour

3 étaient exclues car elles ont arrêté ou refusé le traitement et 2 ont pris de l'ethinyl estradiol et de la Premarine, dont une avec de la cyproterone acetate.

L'effet secondaire le plus commun était des hauts niveaux de prolactine (24, d'après moi, dû à Androcur ET l'ethinyl, je l'ai expliqué avant). Il n'y avait AUCUNE INCIDENCE de thrombose veineuse ou embolie. Seulement 1 cas dont les paramètres de coagulation étaient anormalement affectés avec forte dose d'estrogene ( pas spécifié si oral ou injections ou combien de mgs). Hemoglobine (globules rouges) a aussi diminué ce qui est à prévoir dans 15 d'entre elles.

Il est intéressant de noter que plus loin dans l'étude, on affirme ce qui suit "single case reports of breast cancers...have been reported" donc, très peu et assez surprenant compte tenu du nombre de transsexuelles qui ont pris de fortes doses d'estrogenes et progestatifs non-bioidentiques dans les années 60-90.

Cette autre étude vient confirmer la même chose.

Exp Clin Endocrinol Diabetes. 2005 Dec;113(10):586-92.
Endocrine treatment of male-to-female transsexuals using gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist.

Dittrich R, Binder H, Cupisti S, Hoffmann I, Beckmann MW, Mueller A.
SourceDepartment of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Erlangen University Hospital, Universitätsstrasse 21-23, 91054 Erlangen, Germany

"In transsexual people, cross-sex hormone therapy is an important component of medical treatment. In male-to-female transsexuals, feminizing effects should be achieved before irreversible sex reassignment surgery (SRS) is considered. The most common treatment regimen in male-to-female transsexuals is a combination of ethinyl oestradiol and cyproterone acetate, with the exception of transdermal oestradiol-17beta in individuals over the age of 40. The mortality and morbidity rates with this treatment regimen have been reported in more than 800 patients. Typical side effects include venous thrombosis, elevated liver enzymes, symptomatic gallstones, hyperprolactinaemia and depression. Sixty male-to-female transsexuals were treated with monthly injections of gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist (GnRHa) and oral oestradiol-17beta valerate for 2 years to achieve feminisation until SRS. There was a significant decline in gonadotropins, total testosterone and calculated free testosterone. In general, the treatment regimen was well accepted. An equal increase in breast size was achieved compared to common hormone therapy. Two side effects were documented. One, venous thrombosis, occurred in a patient with a homozygous MTHFR mutation. One patient was found to be suffering from symptomatic preexisting gallstones. No other complications were documented. Liver enzymes, lipids, and prolactin levels were unchanged. Significantly increased oestradiol and SHBG serum levels were detectable. In addition, an increase in bone mass density, in the femoral neck and lumbar spine, was recorded. We conclude that cross-sex hormone treatment of male-to-female transsexuals using GnRHa and oestradiol-17beta valerate is effective, and side effects and complication rates can be reduced using the treatment regimen presented here."

6mg oral estradiol valerate par jour et 3.8mg goserelin acetate à toutes les 4 semaines. Seulement 2 complications sur 60 personnes et chez des personnes avec des problèmes qui existaient déjà.
 
Publicité






 MessagePosté le: 07/09/2013 16:29:57    Sujet du message: Publicité Back to top

PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
 
krikri
grand papillon

Hors ligne

Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2012
Messages: 1 120
Sexe: Femme, MTF
Suivi psy: Oui
Hormoné(e): Oui
Changement de nom: Fait
Changement de mention de sexe: Fait
Vaginoplastie: Fait

 MessagePosté le: 08/09/2013 11:41:48    Sujet du message: Hormones bio-identiques et risques Répondre en citant Back to top

Vous pouvez aussi imprimer ce qui suit...

La première étude ...

Exp Clin Endocrinol Diabetes. 2005 Dec;113(10):586-92.
Endocrine treatment of male-to-female transsexuals using gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist.

Dittrich R, Binder H, Cupisti S, Hoffmann I, Beckmann MW, Mueller A.
SourceDepartment of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Erlangen University Hospital, Universitätsstrasse 21-23, 91054 Erlangen, Germany

"In transsexual people, cross-sex hormone therapy is an important component of medical treatment. In male-to-female transsexuals, feminizing effects should be achieved before irreversible sex reassignment surgery (SRS) is considered. The most common treatment regimen in male-to-female transsexuals is a combination of ethinyl oestradiol and cyproterone acetate, with the exception of transdermal oestradiol-17beta in individuals over the age of 40. The mortality and morbidity rates with this treatment regimen have been reported in more than 800 patients. Typical side effects include venous thrombosis, elevated liver enzymes, symptomatic gallstones, hyperprolactinaemia and depression. Sixty male-to-female transsexuals were treated with monthly injections of gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist (GnRHa) and oral oestradiol-17beta valerate for 2 years to achieve feminisation until SRS. There was a significant decline in gonadotropins, total testosterone and calculated free testosterone. In general, the treatment regimen was well accepted. An equal increase in breast size was achieved compared to common hormone therapy. Two side effects were documented. One, venous thrombosis, occurred in a patient with a homozygous MTHFR mutation. One patient was found to be suffering from symptomatic preexisting gallstones. No other complications were documented. Liver enzymes, lipids, and prolactin levels were unchanged. Significantly increased oestradiol and SHBG serum levels were detectable. In addition, an increase in bone mass density, in the femoral neck and lumbar spine, was recorded. We conclude that cross-sex hormone treatment of male-to-female transsexuals using GnRHa and oestradiol-17beta valerate is effective, and side effects and complication rates can be reduced using the treatment regimen presented here."

La dose d'estradiol est de 6mg par jour si on se fie à cette étude rapportée un an plus tard par les mêmes chercheurs.

Horm Metab Res. 2006 Mar;38(3):183-7.
Effects on the male endocrine system of long-term treatment with gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonists and estrogens in male-to-female transsexuals.

Mueller A, Binder H, Cupisti S, Hoffmann I, Beckmann MW, Dittrich R.
SourceDepartment of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Erlangen University Hospital, Erlangen, Germany. andreas.mueller@gyn.imed.uni-erlangen.de


"We studied hormonal changes resulting from long-term treatment with gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist and 17beta estradiol valerate in 40 healthy middle-aged male-to-female transsexuals over a period of two years. All of the participants received injections of 3.8 mg goserelin acetate every four weeks in combination with 6 mg oral 17beta estradiol valerate per day for cross-sex hormone treatment for male-to-female transsexuals. There was a significant reduction in the levels of serum luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone to the hypogonadal stage. Mean testosterone levels decreased by 97% to 0.52 and 0.59 nmol/l after 12 months and 24 months, respectively. There was a significant reduction in dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate by 37% after 12 months and 43% after 24 months, and androstendione by 29% after 12 months and 27% after 24 months, respectively. Cortisol levels were reduced by 43% and 50%, respectively. Estrogen levels were significantly increased from 77.51 to 677 after 12 months and 661 pmol/l after 24 months. Sex hormone-binding globulin and corticoid-binding globulin levels were significantly increased after 12 and 24 months. There was a significant decrease in all measured androgen fractions and cortisol during long-term treatment with gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist and 17beta estradiol valerate. Apart from suppression of testicular hormone production, one possible interpretation is that treatment with long-term gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist and 17beta estradiol valerate influences adrenal hormone levels in healthy middle-aged male-to-female transsexuals. Cortisol serum levels may be decreased due to estrogen-induced increase in corticoid-binding globulin."

Dans cette étude, aucun changement de la prolactine 12 et 24 mois plus tard. En plus, les paramétres de foie sont aussi restés les mêmes (transaminase, etc.). "Estrogen administration led to an increase in breast size in 70% of the male-to-female transsexuals; however, this was one of the goals of this treatment regimen in transsexual participants and was therefore desirable. There was only a slight, but not significant, increase in triglycerides and cholesterol in the study group, while liver enzymes were unchanged. No side effects were observed in the study population. In general, the treatment regimen was very well-tolerated"

Infos disponibles dans l'article complet.

Les études qui suivent comprennent un traitement de patch à l'estradiol prescrit à des hommes atteints du cancer de la prostate, jusqu'à 6 patchs de 0.1mg appliqués simultanément. Et des niveaux de 1,000 pmol/L et + d'estradiol sont atteints, sans conséquences néfastes pour la santé.

Cancer. 2005 Feb 15;103(4):717-23.

Phase II study of transdermal estradiol in androgen-independent
prostate carcinoma.

Bland LB, Garzotto M, DeLoughery TG, Ryan CW, Schuff KG, Wersinger
EM, Lemmon D, Beer TM.

Division of Urology, Oregon Health and Science University and
Portland Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Portland, Oregon, 97239,
USA.

BACKGROUND: Oral estrogen therapy has activity in patients with
hormone-naive and androgen-independent prostate carcinoma (AIPC), but
its utility is limited by the associated risk of thromboembolic
toxicity. Parenteral administration may be safer as it avoids "first
pass" liver exposure to estrogen. The authors tested the safety and
efficacy of transdermal estradiol (TDE), as well as the effect of
therapy on hot flashes, sex hormones, the procoagulant cascade, and
bone turnover in patients with AIPC. METHODS: Patients with prostate
carcinoma progressing after primary hormonal therapy received TDE 0.6
mg per 24 hours (administered as six 0.1 mg per 24-hour patches
replaced every 7 days).
Serum prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and
hormone levels, coagulation factors, markers of bone turnover, bone
density measurements, and a hot flash diary were collected at regular
intervals. RESULTS: Three of 24 patients (12.5%; 95% confidence
interval [CI], 0-26%) had a confirmed PSA reduction >50%. The Kaplan-
Meier estimate of median time to disease progression was 12 weeks
(95% CI, 4.6-19.4 weeks). Toxicity was modest and no thromboembolic
complications occurred. The mean (+/-95% CI) serum estradiol level
increased from 17.2 pg.mL (range, 14.8-19.6 pg/mL) to 460.7 pg/mL
(range, 334.6-586.7 pg/mL). The total testosterone level remained
stable in the anorchid range during treatment, but the free
testosterone level decreased as a result of increased sex hormone
binding globulin. No change in factor VIII activity, F 1.2, or
resistance to activated protein C was observed, whereas a modest
decrease in the protein S level was observed. CONCLUSIONS: In
patients with APIC, TDE was well tolerated and produced a modest
response rate, but was not associated with thromboembolic
complications or clinically important changes in several coagulation
factors. Copyright (c) 2005 American Cancer Society.

J Urol. 2003 May;169(5):1735-7.

Transdermal estradiol therapy for advanced prostate cancer--forward
to the past?

Ockrim JL, Lalani EN, Laniado ME, Carter SS, Abel PD.

Department of Surgical Oncology, Faculty of Medicine, Imperial
College, Hammersmith Hospitals NHS Trust, UK.

PURPOSE: Current hormonal therapies for prostate cancer are
associated with significant morbidities, including symptoms of
andropause and osteoporosis. Oral estrogens prevented many of these
problems but were abandoned due to cardiovascular toxicity attributed
to hepatic effect. In contrast, parenteral estrogens prevent first
pass hepatic metabolism and substantially reduce cardiovascular risk,
and long-term transdermal estradiol therapy is believed to be
cardioprotective. We report preliminary results of a pilot study
using transdermal estradiol therapy to treat men with advanced
prostate cancer. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A total of 20 patients with
advanced prostate cancer were enrolled in a before and after study
that examined the impact of estradiol patches on hormones, disease,
thrombophilia, vascular flow, osteoporosis and quality of life.
RESULTS: Median followup is 15 months. Estradiol levels greater than
1,000 pmol./l. were achieved using 2 patches and higher levels were
obtained by increasing the number of patches.
All patients achieved
castrate levels of testosterone within 3 weeks and had biochemical
evidence of disease regression. One patient died of disease at 14
months and 1 cardiovascular complication occurred. Thrombophilic
activation was avoided and vascular flow improved. Bone mineral
density was significantly increased. Mild or moderate gynecomastia
occurred in 80% of patients but no patient had hot flushes. All other
functional and symptomatic quality of life domains improved.
CONCLUSIONS: Transdermal estradiol therapy produced an effective
tumor response. Cardiovascular toxicity was substantially reduced
compared with that expected of oral estrogen, and other morbidity
(gynecomastia) was negligible. Transdermal estradiol therapy
prevented andropause symptoms, improved quality of life scores and
increased bone density. Transdermal estradiol costs a tenth of
current therapy cost, with the potential for considerable economic
savings over conventional hormone therapies.

J Urol. 2005 Aug;174(2):527-33; discussion 532-3.

Transdermal estradiol therapy for prostate cancer reduces
thrombophilic activation and protects against thromboembolism.

Ockrim JL, Lalani el-N, Kakkar AK, Abel PD.

Department of Surgical Oncology and Technology, Imperial College and
Hammersmith Hospitals NHS Trust, London, United Kingdom.

PURPOSE: Oral estrogens were an effective treatment for prostate
cancer but were abandoned because of an increased risk of
cardiovascular toxicity and particularly thromboembolism. We have
recently shown that transdermal estradiol produces an effective tumor
response and negligible cardiovascular toxicity. Here we report the
influence of transdermal estradiol therapy on the coagulation profile
of men with advanced prostate cancer. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A total
of 20 patients with newly diagnosed locally advanced or metastatic
prostate cancer were treated using transdermal estradiol patches and
the coagulation profile was assessed before and during 12 months
therapy. Activation of coagulation was assessed by assaying the
levels of activated factor VII (VIIa), activated factor XII (XIIa),
prothrombin fragments 1 and 2 (F1 + 2), thrombin-antithrombin III
(TAT III) complex and fibrinogen. Inhibition of the coagulation
cascade was assayed by protein C, protein S and activated protein C
resistance (APC-R). Fibrinolytic activity was determined by assaying
tissue plasminogen activator (TPA) and plasminogen activation
inhibitor type 1 (PAI-1). D-Dimer levels assessed both coagulation
and fibrinolytic (thrombophilic) activity. Venous Duplex, color
Doppler ultrasound and photoplethysmography were used to assess for
thrombosis. RESULTS: Levels of VIIa and XIIa were unaffected by
transdermal estradiol therapy. Although levels of TAT III were
increased in some patients at 12 months, the increase was markedly
less than that observed historically with equivalent doses of oral
estrogens. Levels of the inhibitory and fibrinolytic factors
including protein C, protein S, APC-R, TPA and PAI-1 remained stable.
Reductions in F1+F2, fibrinogen and D-Dimer levels represented a
normalization from increased levels to the physiological range.
CONCLUSIONS: These results suggest that transdermal estradiol reduces
thrombophilic activation in men with advanced prostate cancer, and
protects against the risk of thrombosis.


Il y aussi des études similaires où des fortes doses d'estrogène sont injectées chez des hommes atteints du cancer de la prostate sans complications veineuses or cardiovasculaires. Veuillez prendre note que lorsqu'ils mentionnent les risques associés à la prise d'estrogène oralement, ils veulent dire l'ethinyl estradiol ou la DES (Diethylstilbestrol), des oestrogènes qui ne sont pas bio-identiques et dont les effets sont de beaucoup, plus forts au niveau du foie, de la prolactine et de la coagulation. L'estradurin n'est pas si différent de l'estradiol valerate.

Voici quelques-unes...

Tidsskr Nor Laegeforen 1993 Mar 10;113(7):833-5

Endocrine treatment of prostatic cancer. A renaissance for parenteral
estrogen.

Stege R, Sander S

The standard treatment for advanced cases of cancer of the prostate
is castration. Oestrogens, administered per os may have serious side
effects, in particular thrombosis and cardiovascular complications.
If the oestrogens are administered parenterally, changes in liver
function can be avoided and risk of side effects markedly reduced.
38 patients have been treated at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, and
14 patients at Aker Hospital in Oslo, with polyoestradiol phosphate
(Estradurin) 240 mg injected intramuscularly every 4th week (initial
dose 320 mg). We can sum up our own experience as follows: Plasma
testosterone is reduced to castration level after 2-3 weeks. Liver
function, evaluated by the sexual hormone binding globulin level in
plasma, remains unchanged. Morbidity and mortality from cancer are
the same as may be achieved by surgical orchidectomy. The only side
effect of significance is gynaecomastia. Follow-up of the patients
does not indicate any increased risk of thrombosis or cardiovascular
disease. The treatment is fairly cheap compared with other
alternative methods of endocrine treatment.

Prostate 1991;18(2):131-7

Cardiovascular and all-cause mortality in prostatic cancer patients treated
with estrogens or orchiectomy as compared to the standard population.

Aro J

Four hundred and seventy-seven prospectively randomized patients with
prostatic carcinoma were treated with a combination of intramuscular
polyestradiol phosphate (PEP) and oral ethinyl estradiol, with
intramuscular PEP alone, or with orchiectomy. The cardiovascular and
all-cause mortality of the two estrogen therapy modalities and
orchiectomy were compared with those of the Finnish male population
in general. The age-standardized rate ratios (approximately relative
risk) for cardiovascular mortality and for all-cause mortality were
1.51 and 2.31 in the combination estrogen therapy group, 0.17 and
1.50 in the PEP monotherapy group, and 0.78 and 1.78 in the
orchiectomy group, respectively. Further mortality rates by cause for
all three treatment groups were standardized for age using the
age-specific person-years at risk as standard. Age-standardized
mortality from cardiovascular diseases was very low in the PEP group,
as compared to other treatment modalities, and the mortality rates
for prostatic cancer were about equal in all three treatment groups.
It is concluded that intramuscular PEP monotherapy is associated with
low cardiovascular mortality and with an all-cause and prostatic
cancer mortality equal to orchiectomy.

Int J Technol Assess Health Care 1991;7(2):220-5

Cost comparison of parenteral estrogen and conventional hormonal treatment
in patients with prostatic cancer.

Henriksson P, Stege R

The present study compares the cost of antitumor therapy and adverse
cardiovascu lar effects during the first year of treatment with oral
estrogens, nonoral estrogens, or surgical castration in patients with
prostatic cancer. We found a much higher cost for patients treated
with orchidectomy and oral estrogens than for patients treated with
nonoral estrogens. Twenty-five percent of the patients treated with
oral estrogen suffered cardiovascular complications, compared to none
of the patients treated by orchidectomy or nonoral estrogens. The
initial cost of orchidectomy as compared to nonoral estrogen
treatment was shown not be balanced within the expected survival time
of patients with advanced prostatic cancer. Furthermore, surgical
castration causes psychological trauma to the patient. We recommend
parenteral estrogen therapy as a low-cost therapeutic regimen in
patients with prostatic cancer.

Prostate 1989;14(4):389-95

Estrogen therapy and liver function--metabolic effects of oral and parenteral
administration.

von Schoultz B, Carlstrom K, Collste L, Eriksson A, Henriksson P,
Pousette A, Stege R

Oral estrogen therapy for prostatic cancer is clinically effective
but also accompanied by severe cardiovascular side effects.
Hypertension, venous thromboembolism, and other cardiovascular
disorders are associated with alterations in liver metabolism. The
impact of exogenous estrogens on the liver is dependent on the route
of administration and the type and dose of estrogen. Oral
administration of synthetic estrogens has profound effects on
liver-derived plasma proteins, coagulation factors, lipoproteins, and
triglycerides, whereas parenteral administration of native estradiol
has very little influence on these aspects of liver function.

Prostate 1988;13(3):257-61

Cardiovascular follow-up of patients with prostatic cancer treated with
single-drug polyestradiol phosphate.

Henriksson P, Eriksson A, Stege R, Collste L, Pousette A, von Schoultz B,
Carlstrom K

Thirty-eight patients with cancer of the prostate were treated with
strict parenteral estrogen in the form of monthly polyestradiol
phosphate injections--160 mg, 240 mg, and 320 mg--in this
nonrandomized study. In contrast to studies with oral estrogens,
there have been no cardiovascular complications at a mean follow-up
of 12.9 +/- 0.7 months (SEM). Twenty-nine of the 38 patients (76%)
have responded to therapy.


Dernière édition par krikri le 08/09/2013 20:16:11; édité 4 fois
 
xena
grand papillon

Hors ligne

Inscrit le: 21 Fév 2013
Messages: 199
Localisation: California
Sexe: Femme, MTF
Suivi psy: Oui
Hormoné(e): Oui
Changement de nom: Fait
Changement de mention de sexe: Fait
Vaginoplastie: Fait

 MessagePosté le: 08/09/2013 18:59:44    Sujet du message: Hormones bio-identiques et risques Répondre en citant Back to top

Merci bcq pour ces informations
_________________
"...don't judge others simply by your preconceptions and judgment based on their appearance.."
 
krikri
grand papillon

Hors ligne

Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2012
Messages: 1 120
Sexe: Femme, MTF
Suivi psy: Oui
Hormoné(e): Oui
Changement de nom: Fait
Changement de mention de sexe: Fait
Vaginoplastie: Fait

 MessagePosté le: 08/09/2013 19:57:20    Sujet du message: Hormones bio-identiques et risques Répondre en citant Back to top

De rien!

En passant, les gars, si vous voulez que je partage avec vous les résultats rapportés pour les FtM dans la première étude (de 1998, dans premier message) citée ci-haut, dites-le moi. Il me fera plaisir de les partager avec vous. Il nous faut éduquer nos docteurs, ils n'ont pas le temps de tout faire et de tout lire...on peut s'entraider.
 
Montrer les messages depuis:   
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet    D'un autre Genre Index du Forum -> Hormone Toutes les heures sont au format GMT - 4 Heures
Page 1 sur 1

 
Sauter vers:  

Index | Créer un forum | Forum gratuit d’entraide | Annuaire des forums gratuits | Signaler une violation | Conditions générales d'utilisation

Cobalt 2.0 phpBB theme/template by Jakob Persson.
Copyright © 2002-2004 Jakob Persson


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2016 phpBB Group
Traduction par : phpBB-fr.com